Next North American Map Update?

[n4khq]

I do a lot of comparison, between Garmin, Street Atlas, TomTom, Google Earth, and RouteBuddy. As a general rule a new road takes 2 years to get on the maps no matter which vendor you are using. I have probable sent RB 1000 email requesting additional features but in my opinion, RB blows away the competition. I compare RB to a garmin etrex vista Hcx with city navigator, a Tomtom Go720, Street Atlas plus 2009, Google Earth, MapQuest, and Google maps. RB POI has never failed me in a real life use but I only use RB when I don't have an internet connection.

I use RB to plan trips and manage GeoData. Personal navigation devices are horrible for panning anything more than a day trip to a single location. The screen is so small it is like drive blindfolded for everything more than 10 mile ahead. I use Google Earth in connection with RB to find my POI for the trip and mark them as waypoints in RB. I find a campground in RB and click the Google Earth icon to view the campground layout in Google Earth. If I locate something in Google Earth I want to use, I transfer the POI as a waypoint to RB. I transfer routes form GE to RB and create multiple routes in RB for comparison purposes.

I transfer the routes and Waypoints to my TomTom and stick it on the dash for the trips. If I am driving by my self, I have the MBP on the console between the seat. If I am a passenger, I can plan and track with RB at the same time or boot Street Atlas for comparsion.

If I pick a single area and compare roads, routes & POIs there are certainly variations between the applications but over all RB compares equally to all the offline applications, and surprisingly well with the online Google Earth. There is a lot of mistakes in everyone's map data but personally I am amazed routing programs do as well as they do considering the complexity.

[shuether]

Quick question about map updates. I currently have 2007.3 installed. How much is it to upgrade to the latest, 2008.4?

Also, for distribution have you considered using bittorrent? I know it gets a bad rap for being used so much for movies and stuff, but it is really an efficient distribution model as each user also uploads to other users as they are downloading. Plus it integrity checks each part of the file so if a small piece gets corrupted, the end user just re-downloads that piece instead of the whole file, plus the torrent client handle all this automatically. It also supports stopping and resuming downloads at any time. Just something to consider, it also might reduce bandwidth consumption on your ftp server.

more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_(protocol)

For the best Torrent client check out http://www.utorrent.com (windows I know, but a lot of people still have a pc around) or http://www.transmissionbt.com/ for mac.

shoot me an email if you have any questions! steve[at]huether[dot]ca

Steve

[Geocat]

I do a lot of comparison, between Garmin, Street Atlas, TomTom, Google Earth, and RouteBuddy. As a general rule a new road takes 2 years to get on the maps no matter which vendor you are using.

That is not my experience on the west coast. The typical example below shows current maps from RouteBuddy, Google and Garmin's Map Viewer. Notice how RouteBuddy is missing some streets, the lower roundabout, one-way street circulation, and a neighborhood park. The missing street additions are over 2 years old, so RouteBuddy's map is not only outdated but lacks the detail of Google's map. The Garmin map is from their on-line viewer for Navigator NT (it looks better on the GPSr display) and has up-to-date streets.

I use RB to plan trips and manage GeoData.

RouteBuddy's POIs have no address and phone information which seriously limits even basic look-ups, not to mention trip planning. As for managing data, I can't trust RouteBuddy yet because of crashes and erratic behavior.

[bwohlgamuth]

Hey All,

I purchased RouteBuddy as well as the North American map back in October. I've seen on here that there's now an upgrade available for that, but I can't seem to find it on the site. I tried emailing support a week or so ago, but I haven't heard anything back.

Can anyone here give me an idea how to get the updated maps?

Thanks for your help,

Bill

[n4khq]

The upgrade is the demo.

[neil]

Sorry to back you into a corner over the maps.

No worries - I didn't take it that way.
Certainly the facts (and interpretation of them) can speak for themselves

Certainly the user's location and purpose can change the perspective but from where I sit the appearances are not good.

That's it in a nutshell, it is a personal perspective, and from your location, which as a general rule cannot be applied to the whole of North America or 'just anywhere'.

You can appreciate that data over 2 years old are not going to satisfy many customers and it is little consolation that other areas may have more recent data--if even 18 months can be considered recent!

As explained before, anything newer is a bit of a rarity from any raw data supplier to GPS manufacturer or otherwise.
Given the time I could sit down and more than likely pick a zillion holes in anyone's data on-a-comparison-basis, but I don't have that time or the inclination! Nothing is ever perfect from moment to moment and it's reasonably acceptable that data in one area will always differ from another.

This brings to question the entire data mining and delivery methods of the mapping companies and how that data are used by products like RouteBuddy. It may be

Not 'may' but 'is'

nearly impossible to supply current data for a single area as large as North America. The data should be broken down onto smaller sizes while increasing the frequency of updates. When I used Mapopolis they had data by U.S. county--probably too small an area!--and told me that NAVTEQ could update these up to quarterly although Mapopolis bought less frequent updates. I can live with some old POIs but out-of-date maps make navigation difficult if not dangerous.

I do feel that although the model you mention may not be the way updates will happen in the future I can certainly see new methods gathering momentum as different ways are explored to produce data and updates (...accurate updates) more frequently. We are seeing moves in the industry to support this.
(The model you suggest could well cause a lot of issues with the very complex work done with geocoding and GIS data in 'knitting together' one sector of a multitude of roads to another, GIS data and digital mapping is likely one of the most complicated software industries to develop for.)

Speaking of POIs--where you say RouteBuddy has an advantage over Garmin--in a sample around my neighborhood, a Garmin handheld returned 50 "Food & Drink" results within 0.95 mile complete with address, phone number and distance from current position. RouteBuddy returned only 43 results within 1 mile with no information whatsoever--what good is that?

You're quoting one area, which makes no sense when you look at the nation as a whole, also it's a perspective which up to this stage is a view rather than a file that is available to us for substantiation. Sure Garmin's data has telephone numbers, and addresses, but so will RouteBuddy in the future - we're not that big to enable all the extra features just yet but then again to-put-this-in-perspective Garmin doesn't have our software features... Given a choice I'd rather see with my eyes what's available as a POI, of course telephone numbers may make a difference to some but directory enquiries are still available via your cell phone.

Granted, another person may find RouteBuddy's maps great for their travel area and may not care about the lack of POI info. For me, the data are disappointing.

Looks like we and Tele Atlas will have to pull our finger out in the area you live in then!


How about you send me a .kml file centered on the location you mention, then I can check it out for myself. Please send to: support@routebuddy.com


Neil

[neil]

Quick question about map updates. I currently have 2007.3 installed. How much is it to upgrade to the latest, 2008.4?

Hi,

you should have received an email by now with a special offer. If you haven't then send an email to support@RouteBuddy.com with the email address you used when purchasing. Thanks.

Also, for distribution have you considered using bittorrent? I know it gets a bad rap for being used so much for movies and stuff, but it is really an efficient distribution model as each user also uploads to other users as they are downloading. Plus it integrity checks each part of the file so if a small piece gets corrupted, the end user just re-downloads that piece instead of the whole file, plus the torrent client handle all this automatically. It also supports stopping and resuming downloads at any time. Just something to consider, it also might reduce bandwidth consumption on your ftp server.

more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_(protocol)

For the best Torrent client check out http://www.utorrent.com (windows I know, but a lot of people still have a pc around) or http://www.transmissionbt.com/ for mac.

shoot me an email if you have any questions! steve[at]huether[dot]ca

Steve

Thanks for that, all feedback is appreciated!

Sales of all NAM and USA Maps, plus the upcoming MEXmix Maps are posted on DVDs now. Download links are still available for those who want them.


Neil

[neil]

I do a lot of comparison, between Garmin, Street Atlas, TomTom, Google Earth, and RouteBuddy. As a general rule a new road takes 2 years to get on the maps no matter which vendor you are using.

That is not my experience on the west coast. The typical example below shows current maps from RouteBuddy, Google and Garmin's Map Viewer. Notice how RouteBuddy is missing some streets, the lower roundabout, one-way street circulation, and a neighborhood park. The missing street additions are over 2 years old, so RouteBuddy's map is not only outdated but lacks the detail of Google's map. The Garmin map is from their on-line viewer for Navigator NT (it looks better on the GPSr display) and has up-to-date streets.

As said in a previous post just send us a .kml file detailing where this location is and we can check it out, then and only then can we accurately comment on it.

Apros pos detail in other maps, as far as I am aware we offer the most detail and describe roads say like roundabouts in more sections than any other map offering.

However this posting on our NAM map set is entering realms of pedantry where, if we had time, we could pick holes in any data - West Coast or not. Neither do I plan to start dissing competitors products but ask readers to add up all the features RouteBuddy has on offer against what's offered from other developers. The results sure speak for themselves.

RouteBuddy's POIs have no address and phone information which seriously limits even basic look-ups, not to mention trip planning.

I'm afraid I don't buy that. Sure more information can be better but more POIs in RouteBuddy as against less...

As for managing data, I can't trust RouteBuddy yet because of crashes and erratic behavior.

We've narrowed down most of what causes RouteBuddy to misbehave from support tickets and bug reports. RouteBuddy as a complex mapping application has to do a lot of work (because of the high definition maps we offer) and problems on the host machine can cause hiccups. I think I've listed these elsewhere on the forum but are happy to list them again if requested.


Neil

[Geocat]

Certainly the user's location and purpose can change the perspective but from where I sit the appearances are not good.

That's it in a nutshell, it is a personal perspective, and from your location, which as a general rule cannot be applied to the whole of North America or 'just anywhere'.

Ok, then let's talk in generalities. I just completed a 500-mile interstate trip and compared RouteBuddy with Google Map at various locations. I found that RouteBuddy has:

* less current roads,
* fewer features (parks, hospitals, malls, etc.) shown on the base map,
* no labels on the features even at high zoom,
* fewer major roads highlighted (although RB uses more colors for what it has),
* less useful road labels (some rotated, some highways without number designation),
* poor labeling of roads at moderate zoom levels,
* fewer and less current POIs with less information.

You should be able to see these deficiencies throughout the west coast. They are not specific to my city. I checked some other cities in the country and found the same pattern.

You can appreciate that data over 2 years old are not going to satisfy many customers and it is little consolation that other areas may have more recent data--if even 18 months can be considered recent!

As explained before, anything newer is a bit of a rarity from any raw data supplier to GPS manufacturer or otherwise.

In my 10-year experience of buying 7 different NAVTEQ updates for car, handheld and computer nav systems the data were always around one year old. Your Tele Atlas data is over 2 years old--that is unreasonable in my book. I have heard that Tele Atlas is behind NAVTEQ in the U.S. and my sample confirms that.

Given a choice I'd rather see with my eyes what's available as a POI, of course telephone numbers may make a difference to some but directory enquiries are still available via your cell phone.

So why even use RouteBuddy to look up POIs?! My phone even has Google Map with traffic.

How about you send me a .kml file centered on the location you mention, then I can check it out for myself.

I'm not sure what you want in a kml file (I rarely use them) but the center coord for the comparison maps above is roughly N 44°03.45', W 121°21.16'. I don't remember where I did the one-mile restaurant search but it was probably around 44°03.745', W 121°19.485'.

However this posting on our NAM map set is entering realms of pedantry where, if we had time, we could pick holes in any data - West Coast or not. Neither do I plan to start dissing competitors products but ask readers to add up all the features RouteBuddy has on offer against what's offered from other developers. The results sure speak for themselves.

The local detail I point out is characteristic of large-scale deficiencies in the maps and POIs that limit RouteBuddy's usefulness. Some of its features are nice but if I can't depend on the data then features don't matter. I would never think of trusting a 3-year-old paper map or phone book in the fast-growing west coast, nor have I been able to trust RouteBuddy because of too much obsolete data. I'm surprised you dismiss it so easily because half of any mapping system is the data.

As for managing data, I can't trust RouteBuddy yet because of crashes and erratic behavior.

We've narrowed down most of what causes RouteBuddy to misbehave from support tickets and bug reports. RouteBuddy as a complex mapping application has to do a lot of work (because of the high definition maps we offer) and problems on the host machine can cause hiccups. I think I've listed these elsewhere on the forum but are happy to list them again if requested.

I don't see any functional difference in the definition of the maps. They all look pretty much the same on a laptop screen to me, with the major visual difference being single- versus double-line roads. I don't doubt that RouteBuddy has a theroretical advantage but the main way the definition affects me is the large, cumbersome map file.

[Danrohe]

I just purchased the US map while on a trip to Louisiana. I got the discs today and downloaded both onto my Mac Book Pro. I do not have the unlock code, as it did not come in and email, or the box with discs. Anyone know someone I can call to find my unlock code? Dan

[neil]

I just purchased the US map while on a trip to Louisiana. I got the discs today and downloaded both onto my Mac Book Pro. I do not have the unlock code, as it did not come in and email, or the box with discs. Anyone know someone I can call to find my unlock code? Dan

The codes will have been sent to you in the Kagi TFYP (Thanks for your purchase receipt) they sent you. Just scroll down, there's a lot of verbiage on the email I'm afraid.


Neil

BTW - We pick up quicker on requests like this if they are sent to support@RouteBuddy.com. Thanks.

[neil]

Ok, then let's talk in generalities. I just completed a 500-mile interstate trip and compared RouteBuddy with Google Map at various locations.

I take your point, but unless you add up feature for feature then these points are irrelevant. Google Maps are Online and RouteBuddy is an Offline software application, which means they both have Pros and Cons when analysed, and compared in detail, as well as evaluating the difference in manner of employment.

In my 10-year experience of buying 7 different NAVTEQ updates for car, handheld and computer nav systems the data were always around one year old. Your Tele Atlas data is over 2 years old--that is unreasonable in my book. I have heard that Tele Atlas is behind NAVTEQ in the U.S. and my sample confirms that.

Tosh. I don't buy that about the Navteq updates, but if that's what you want to believe... As far as the hearsay about Tele Atlas vs. NavTeq in the US then consider the situation in Europe is reversed. Frankly, as one who works in the industry and knows people from both companies, I wouldn't give credence to either bit of folklore.

So why even use RouteBuddy to look up POIs?! My phone even has Google Map with traffic.

To create a route to on your Mac perhaps?

I'm not sure what you want in a kml file

Well to be fair of course.. if you make a sweeping statement is it not a reasonable request you give us the exact location so we can check on your statement and compare our map data with others?

The local detail I point out is characteristic of large-scale deficiencies in the maps and POIs that limit RouteBuddy's usefulness. Some of its features are nice but if I can't depend on the data then features don't matter. I would never think of trusting a 3-year-old paper map or phone book in the fast-growing west coast, nor have I been able to trust RouteBuddy because of too much obsolete data. I'm surprised you dismiss it so easily because half of any mapping system is the data.

To dismiss would be an error on my part and not a course I would take; I apologise if that's how you interpreted my comments. It would also be an error to assume RouteBuddy is in maintenance mode, because it's far from it; and all of the things you desire in RouteBuddy will be built in over time. However, I would be in error if I didn't request facts to support user statements; hyperbole about our product, or the data we supply, is one thing but backing up spurious comments (with fact) is what I would like in order to make sure we only deal in 'facts'. Then, and only 'Then' can we put into place remedial action should it be required.

I don't see any functional difference in the definition of the maps. They all look pretty much the same on a laptop screen to me, with the major visual difference being single- versus double-line roads. I don't doubt that RouteBuddy has a theroretical advantage but the main way the definition affects me is the large, cumbersome map file.

Looking at the detail in curves is the best way to appreciate the finer differences in RouteBuddy.



Neil

[Geocat]

Neil, I'm just a customer reporting my observations. I respect your experience and ask only that you respect mine. I may not have your breadth of contacts but I know my corner of the world very well. When I buy a new mapping product I compare it to the streets and businesses familiar to me. What I say about RouteBuddy and other products I have used is accurate from my perspective. It is not "folklore" or "hyperbole." I resent the implication that I am making stuff up.

I gave a specific example and it was dismissed as being too local. I gave a 7-point observation from a long road trip out of my area and was told this is irrelevant. I was asked for a kml file (of what exactly, I'm not sure) so I offered coordinates instead which are apparently not good enough to check my "sweeping statement." Given that none of my concerns were addressed or even explored further, it sounds to me like my input is not wanted. Oh, well, maybe the next version will surprise me.

[n4khq]

GeoCat,

kml is the file format used by google earth and the default export of RB. Put the stuff you want to send to neil is a folder, select the folder and export.

I constantly compare RB's routes and Maps to Google Earth, Street Atlas, Garmin, and TomTom. RB has my driveway and
Street Atlas 2008 does not but I have found the reverse true. I am convinced RB maps are as accurate as you will find on DVD. However you need to realize that all the map companies gather the information from various sources and it takes time for updates and there will always be errors. RB has very little control over the data, they picked the premiere company in my opinion. If you zoom in on google earth past the NASA view, you will see Tele Atlas maps being used by Google.

In my opinion it is not a good to evaluate a routing program in a known area. All programs will come up short. For example my wife's favorite route to work is determined by the flowers grown in people yards along the way and no routing program can include that in the routing equation. In real life use, RB has always performed extremely well. Finding a friend, or church in an unfamiliar city or taking me cross county. On these type of trips, most people and not interested in back streets , the user just wants to get there as quick as possible which is not necessary the shortest route. You make much better time on interstates even if you travel father. The wanting to get there the quickest may change with the increase in gas prices.

[Geocat]

kml is the file format used by google earth and the default export of RB. Put the stuff you want to send to neil is a folder, select the folder and export.

What stuff? All I was doing was comparing maps and search results from different apps.

However you need to realize that all the map companies gather the information from various sources and it takes time for updates and there will always be errors. RB has very little control over the data...

Yes, I get that, although if Tele Atlas is like NAVTEQ there are different levels of data and updates that the customer can purchase. Whatever RB is buying is outdated in my area compared to the other systems I use. Also, the POI search is very limited and the routing is erratic. The other systems are far from perfect either but are better in significant ways for how I use them. YMMV.

In my opinion it is not a good to evaluate a routing program in a known area. All programs will come up short.

I evaluate programs in my region because that is where I need them to work and where I am familiar with the differences. I could care less how well the product does in other areas.